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 Debate 10: Finding Employment

I am not sure if anyone is interested in my particular case study but here goes.

When I left school (1961) it was at a time when it was usual for girls to leave school to get married and have a family and that you would always look to be supported by a husband - that was all that was expected and I had absolutely no choice or control over this although I was bright. I did get married, had no children but many unskilled dead end jobs.

In my mid- 30's I took an 'A' Level private secretarial course sponsored by the government. With this under my belt and working as a Medical Secretary I decided to see just what else I could achieve whilst continuing to work full time. I now have 5 'O' Levels, 3-4 'A' Levels, NVQ Introduction to Management Certificate and BSc(Hons) 2:1 Degree (graduate this year) - all done at my own expense and in my own time.

However, despite all this diligence I have failed to gain promotion or acceptance at a higher level in any job I have applied for even though I have been realistic (and assertive).

My history means that I have never commanded a high salary and subsequently my savings and pension leave a lot to be desired. Here I am at 62 and still seeking full time work as I don't have enough saved to see me through the next 10-15yr, and a knackered husband. Although I do have a certain sense of fulfilment re my efforts I am angry at the way working class women are still perceived and the way that people over 55 are depicted on television (adverts etc). Self-satisfied grandparents sitting at home in comfortable chairs knitting or cutting the lawn whilst waiting for family to visit. We obviously do not care about our appearance as clothes shown on day time TV are only for younger women - the older women here being described as 40 +! I just don't fit into any of these categories and I am sure I am not the only one who feels like this. Until this image is changed, society and potential employers will not look favourably on the more mature job seeker - I am still moving forward and don't consider that I am anywhere near over the hill.

I long to use my degree and gain satisfying employment but...

Any suggestions?

Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 1:42 PM
Some thoughts that come to mind...

There are many support networks for women these days...e.g.
www.everywoman.co.uk
http://www.womenlikeus.org.uk/home.aspx

Seek advice from e.g. CEHR, EFA, Fawcett Society

Try, even though it might be hard, not to be or sound bitter, otherwise this will tend to come across in your words and behaviours and put employers off, no matter how justified. You are where you are.

Success is never permanent; failure is never fatal. The only thing that really counts is to never, never, never give up.
(Winston Churchill)

Regards
Harish
PRM Diversity Consultants
Diversity and culture change audit, strategy, training, coaching & research services
www.prorepman.co.uk

Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 1:59 PM
Hello Harish

Thank you for your interest and comments.

I agree that to think of saying anything that sounds in the least bit bitter at an interview or to any potential employer should never be contemplated and I never ever do this. Nothing would be gained - on the contrary much would be lost!

My point was that due to attitudes to women of my social standing in the early 1960's and the perceived path my life was destined to take I was not given the opportunity to develop the skills that might have led me to a more fulfilling job offering higher financial rewards.

In my working life I have always strived to improve my circumstances but this has just not happened. I have spent approximately 23 years on and off working in the NHS and despite several attempts to progress this has been barred to me - not just me personally but because of the perception and prejudice that NHS management has towards Medical Secretaries in general.

It is a very common and real situation - it is not only doctors and nurses who have problems with management who concentrate on government targets but other staff too. Despite all the hype about offering training and equal opportunities to all staff - it just does not happen to those lower down the scale - they are part of an underclass. Whilst working for my last boss, a Consultant Surgeon, for 9 years he was a Lead Clinician for the Department and also became the Director. His pay, responsibilities and status progressed but mine didn't - I fought for recognition of my increased workload and responsibilities and succeeded in the end, albeit they did not give me back pay me for the full 3 year term that I had worked with substantially heavier responsibilities.

So you see that not only has my continued progression been academic achievements but also on the work front I have endeavoured. I fought not only for myself but for my colleagues who were potentially in the same position. Courses open to other administrators were not offered to the Medical Secretaries. However, I fought for these as well and managed to attend three, one for management training. At all appropriate times I made my intentions clear that I wanted more responsibility and to progress but to no avail. I never understood this as I have a high intelligence, am diligent, loyal and am very experienced in many aspects of the NHS.

I took early retirement from the NHS because of all the negative changes. The week I left 2 Nursing Sisters walked out and two other colleagues left for the same reasons - an indictment on the course the management were taking. I was excellent at my job and well respected by my two bosses and colleagues and was very sorry to leave but felt I had done all I could. My bosses face went white when I told him I had handed my notice in!

I now find myself aged 62, at the end of my degree and seeking a fulfilling full time job. My husband who has been self-employed for 35+ years has suffered ill-health for some time now but continued working has just retired having lost 2/3 of his private pension in the financial crises a few years ago.

I will continue to look for a job that gives me satisfaction and will never, ever give up - be rest assured about that - Churchill would be proud of me!

Disenchanted: lady from CROW

Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008
I agree with others I think some assistance to help her assess what she has done and how she might express herself in other ways - through writing perhaps - and maybe also to earn some income. She might also find that work in the voluntary sector might be more rewarding in some respects but not necessarily financial. Although she has been seeking financial reward for and recognition of her abilities it may be that she is now unlikely to achieve that and might look for fulfilment in other ways

Jim

Sent: 11 June 2008 08:44
HI there - I must say I sympathise completely with this lady. I also left school in the 1960s with 7 'O' levels, and the expectation was that I would work for 3 or 4 years before getting married and having children.

I worked in administration for a number of years and, although I was given more responsibility I was never seen as a candidate to try for the 'top jobs' which were strictly for men.

On returning to work after raising a family, I entered into a Sales environment and again, although I competed with the men on an equal footing, management jobs were simply not available to me. By this time, all of the top jobs were going to people with a degree (one is zoology I remember!!) but because I didn't have a piece of paper to back my skills and ability I was overlooked time and again.

Eventually, I tired of trying to climb the greasy pole and took early retirement at 50 and, since then I have been running my own IT training company. I am now totally fulfilled in every way both running the company and doing the training. I do everything from writing course outlines and lesson plans to delivering courses, to managing staff, paying salaries and management accounting. I work all day every day and a lot of evenings and weekends but at least it is for myself and not for a management board that doesn't appreciate my contribution.

I hope this lady find fulfilment in whatever she does - don't give up, there is something out there that will give you fulfilment, you just need to find it.

Ro Williams
Silver Surfer Entrepreneur of the Year 2005.

Sent: 12 June 2008
Well done, Ros, for being so courageous and succeeding. Not many people can make the decision to leave an unsatisfactory situation ------ And sometimes we are trapped by society and the times we live in. My mother, born in 1903, was not allowed to take up the grammar school place she won, because her elder brother hadn't qualified for one, and her Victorian father had the same ideas about the short working prospects for women before marriage and children. It was only during the SECOND world war that women teachers and civil servants could go on working after marriage. When I went to university in 1945 it was unusual for girls - especially from a council estate - not to go out to work at 14.

But I hope that the bitterness that my mother felt, and the thwarted ambition that damaged her marriage and put pressure on me to succeed academically is not happening nowadays. It's a very negative thing. I'm not sure that it isn't tied up with resentment about gender, or perhaps the need for monetary recognition of one's 'worth'. Does money really measure that?

Has this bitterness made her a difficult workmate? Did she ever think of moving to a job in a less hierarchical organisation where there would be more scope for her talents to be recognised and used?

And if the executive job and high salary doesn't happen, do just get on with life and enjoy it - after all, it doesn't come round again.

Audrey

Sent: 16 June 2008 16:14
This lady might like to consider applying to become an Associate Lecturer (p/t tutor) with the Open University depending on the subject of her degree.

Best wishes
Alex

Dr Alex Withnall
Associate Professor in Lifelong Learning & Health Health Sciences Research Institute Warwick Medical School University of Warwick Coventry

Sent: 18 June 2008 09:15
She is 62+ so would be looking at forced retirement at 65 though - it seems- ?

Regards

Arthur Butterfield
Regional ICT Development Manager
(Broadband & Regional ICT Team)
Global Competitiveness Directorate
SEEDA - South East England Development Agency Cross Lanes, Guildford,
GU1 1YA

Sent: 18 June 2008 10:14
Forced to retire at 65? Actually you have the right to say you want to continue working and the employer is legally obliged to consider the request. The employer might say no, but they cannot just dismiss the application. Many sensible firms, mindful of demographic change, have open ended employment contracts. Others look at part-time work. If the company has a sensible appraisal system, then both sides agree when it is finally time to retire. Those with their heads in the sand blame the government and the education system because they cannot find younger employees.

Of course, by starting your own small business, none of this patronising stuff applies. You can run your business for as long as you like. If you plan your business properly you can sell it when you are ready to leave.

Best wishes

Laurie South
Chief Executive PRIME

PRIME: promoting 50+ self-employment & enterprise www.primeinitiative.org.uk www.primebusinessclub.com
 

Sent: 18 June 2008
Perhaps the OU would like to comment _ I rightly or wrongly heard that their staff were in this position...

Arthur Butterfield
Regional ICT Development Manager
SEEDA - South East England Development Agency Cross Lanes, Guildford, GU1 1YA

Sent: 18 June 2008
Yes, sadly Arthur is right as ironically, there has just been considerable publicity in the national press about this. Let's hope the OU has a change of heart!

Rgds

Alex
Dr Alex Withnall
Associate Professor in Lifelong Learning & Health Health Sciences Research Institute Warwick Medical School University of Warwick Coventry

Sent: 18 June 2008
Further to your enquiry below, it might be helpful to suggest that the lady contacts learndirect Careers Advice on 0800 100 900. Our Careers Coaches can provide advice on CVs and interviews and also help her to develop an action plan. Lines are open from 8am to 10pm 7 days a week and she can call as many times as she likes.

Just a thought, but if the lady does decide to call the helpline, we'd be very interested in using her story as a case study for our website www.learndirect-advice.co.uk and wondered if you might consider suggesting this to her.

I hope this is helpful.

With kind regards
Karen Turner
Web Coordinator
learndirect Careers Advice
Ufi Ltd

Sent: 18 June 2008
Yes I agree, but I had stroke 20mths 65. Any other work I can do?

I had a right ankle, right hand and mind.

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